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Salvage stealing vs. loot stealing.

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Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:16:00 - [1] The useless s**will always cry in this situation. The useless sbeing the salvage thieves. Yes, they are thieves. Look at the wreck. It has ownership. Until CCP changes that, then they are salvage thieves. Until CCP changes that, the mechanic allowing other players to salvage wrecks is broken. A wreck will take on the corp ticker. A wreck will even flag as belonging to a Militia. Attack the can, and you will be attacked. You cannot tractor it. Everything aside from salvaging the wreck supports wreck ownership. Saying that it is working as intended is simply ****ed. It is either broken because it flags the wreck with ownership or it is broken because it can be salvaged. Either way, it is broken and CCP needs to fix it.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:37:00 - [2] Why the space garbage argument against it being stealing is fail... ...if it was not worth anything, why do people do it? Everything about the wreck BUT salvaging shows ownership. Deal with it folks, and stop crying about the fact that you are crying about people having a reason to be upset with what you are doing. Seriously, for each thread on this - there are one or two people that you would say are crying against it - and there are how many people crying for it? GTFO, so seriously.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:30:00 - [3] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Yes, there policies are often clear - nerf, nerf, nerf and ignore any sort of logic; we know that. This is simply a way for them to get more money out of a person, forcing them to run two accounts. Quote: Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Can the other player attack that wreck? Do you mean Concord takes an interest in it if they do? So what is it? Does Concord care or not care... or does CCP just not have a clue? Quote: Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Who called it an exploit? It is a bug. Fix it. Quote: Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Funny that for everything but salvaging, that the server attributes ownership. Bug much? Quote: (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) They are good to have around to point out how they do not have a clue. We already knew this, but thank you for affirming that...
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:55:00 - [4] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point number 1 Mission ships don't do so well against PVP fit ships. That is just a fact. How many mission fits contain a warp scrambler/disruptor? How many mission fits use very specific hardeners? About all of them. Considering that shooting at a target even with aggression would cause them to have shooting rights on you, your mission ship will be OMGWTFBBQPWN'd by any reasonable ship brought out against you. This would cause more problems for mission runners like you as supply and demand would make your (now often replaced) ships much more expensive. Trust me when I say you would not find that fun. This is simple to deal with and need not be as complicated as you make it out to be. When the person flags for any theft, they can return fire if fired upon. However, if they experience a session change - they lose their right to shoot until they once again are shot at. This will prevent them from flagging, getting the other person to attack, and then returning with a PVP ship. Sounds silly, eh? Then again, based on what you are suggesting - how many PVP fit mining barges and exhumers are there? Theft is theft and should flag. It is up to the victim of the theft to determine if they want to engage.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point Number 2 Salvage ninjas spend quite a lot of time training to learn how to probe down missioning ships. This means real game time of actually finding you, and training time. It is not fair, however you may justify it, to make this useless. And ninja salvaging makes much less profit than running your own missions, so you cannot complain that they are getting an unfair advantage. Takes less than 5 minutes to scan a player down. Takes less than three days to train up for it. Salvaging makes more profit than running the missions. The amount of time it takes to complete a mission versus the time it takes for a salvage thief to hit up multiple mission runners does not even compare. This was just a silly argument.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point Number 3 Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Faolchu is mistaken in the value that Concord places on wrecks. Shoot at a wreck belonging to another player to find out how... Prism is mistaken in the server code does not attribute ownership of wreck. Check out the corp ticker. Check out the militia flag. Check out the actions you can and cannot do with the wrecks.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 21:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Bibbleibble Point Number 4 You can prevent ninja Salvagers from invading your mission by moving from missioning hubs to more quiet systems. I have on my main a nice L4q18 agent in a system with about 20 people in local MAX. This means my chances of having my salvage ninja'd is very small. However you may lose just a little profit on the mission. Or move to low sec and get free aggression on them there! This does not prevent it. It simply reduces the chance. Only CCP can prevent this, and they are blindly ignorant of the issue they have created.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:23:00 - [8] Originally by: Blastrodamus i understand that the eve universe is harsh, and people want to change that. i argue against all that because the harshness is what draws me and lots of other people to this game. It is not about wanting to change it from being harsh. I would rather have no cans, wrecks, or the like show ownership - as long as it was consistent. The inconsistency and the failed logic is what bothers me here. It is just one of those little pet peeves, I guess - things should be consistent or there is a bug one way or the other. Either they should not flag ownership or people should flag for salvaging an item with ownership. It really is that simple.
Deryk Blacke Minmatar VirDan Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:43:00 - [9] Originally by: Freya Marada Originally by: Deryk Blacke It is just one of those little pet peeves, I guess - things should be consistent or there is a bug one way or the other. Either they should not flag ownership or people should flag for salvaging an item with ownership. It really is that simple. I guess CONCORD should work in 0.0 as well or nowhere. And then lets eliminate any variances in gameplay, who needs different ships and modules? Things should be consistent! Hrmmm, you need to train up your trolling skills. There is a distinct difference between consistency and your rather pathetic failed attempt at sarcasm.

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